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The Confusing World of ATI Radeons

Phipli

Well-known member
So, I thought I understood the PCI Radeon 9xxx family...

There is the 9200, the starting point, 128bit memory.
The 9200 SE, with a 64bit memory bus.
There is the 9250, clocked a little slower, the Mac ones have a 128bit memory bus, but some PC ones are 64bit...

Confusingly, ATI sold 9250s in 9200 boxes... OK. Whatever.

Most confusing of all, what on earth is a Radeon 9200 LE?! If I believe information online, it has the same GPU clock speed, same 128bit memory, same everything as the standard 9200, except it only has 64MB of RAM instead of 128MB (or 256MB)...

Except I'm sat here looking at a "Radeon 9200 LE 128M"... with 128MB of RAM?!

What is the difference between a Radeon 9200 with 128MB VRAM, and a Radeon 9200 LE 128M with 128MB VRAM? Anyone know?
 

ArmorAlley

Well-known member
I thought that the LE was the 'Lite Edition' but the specs do look identical. Maybe it means 'Limited Edition'.
I can't help you but I do have more info.

Have a look at the comparison in the techpowerup.com chart:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/?generation=Radeon R200&sort=name

GPU Memory Shaders /
Card GPU Memory Clock Clock TMUs / ROPs
Radeon 7500 RV200 32 MB, DDR, 128 bit 260 MHz 180 MHz 2 / 1 / 6 / 2 Mac Edition
Radeon 9000 RV250 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 250 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4 PCI version. The AGP Pros are 275/275MHz.
Radeon 9200 RV280 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 250 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4
Radeon 9200SE RV280 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 200 MHz 166 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4
Radeon 9200LE RV280 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 250 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4
Radeon 9250 RV280 128 MB, DDR, 128 bit 240 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4

To be fair, 128MB of VRAM on a Mac OS 9 machine is waaaay too much and any of the cards will do for Mac OS 9 gaming.
Mac OS X is surely a very different beast and I know much too little about to be able to comment on it.

TI Radeon 9200 LE​

The Radeon 9200 LE was a graphics card by ATI, launched on May 1st, 2003. Built on the 150 nm process, and based on the RV280 graphics processor, the card supports DirectX 8.1. Since Radeon 9200 LE does not support DirectX 11 or DirectX 12, it might not be able to run all the latest games. The RV280 graphics processor is a relatively small chip with a die area of only 98 mm² and 36 million transistors. It features 4 pixel shaders and 1 vertex shader 4 texture mapping units, and 4 ROPs. Due to the lack of unified shaders you will not be able to run recent games at all (which require unified shader/DX10+ support). ATI has paired 64 MB DDR memory with the Radeon 9200 LE, which are connected using a 128-bit memory interface. The GPU is operating at a frequency of 250 MHz, memory is running at 200 MHz.
Being a single-slot card, the ATI Radeon 9200 LE draws power from 1x Molex power connector, with power draw rated at 28 W maximum. Display outputs include: 1x DVI, 1x VGA, 1x S-Video. Radeon 9200 LE is connected to the rest of the system using an AGP 8x interface.

ATI Radeon 9200​

The Radeon 9200 was a graphics card by ATI, launched on May 1st, 2003. Built on the 150 nm process, and based on the RV280 graphics processor, in its RV280 9200 variant, the card supports DirectX 8.1. Since Radeon 9200 does not support DirectX 11 or DirectX 12, it might not be able to run all the latest games. The RV280 graphics processor is a relatively small chip with a die area of only 98 mm² and 36 million transistors. It features 4 pixel shaders and 1 vertex shader 4 texture mapping units, and 4 ROPs. Due to the lack of unified shaders you will not be able to run recent games at all (which require unified shader/DX10+ support). ATI has paired 128 MB DDR memory with the Radeon 9200, which are connected using a 128-bit memory interface. The GPU is operating at a frequency of 250 MHz, memory is running at 200 MHz.
Being a single-slot card, the ATI Radeon 9200 does not require any additional power connector, its power draw is rated at 28 W maximum. Display outputs include: 1x DVI, 1x VGA, 1x S-Video. Radeon 9200 is connected to the rest of the system using an AGP 8x interface.
 

Phipli

Well-known member
I thought that the LE was the 'Lite Edition' but the specs do look identical. Maybe it means 'Limited Edition'.
I can't help you but I do have more info.

Have a look at the comparison in the techpowerup.com chart:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/?generation=Radeon R200&sort=name

GPU Memory Shaders /
Card GPU Memory Clock Clock TMUs / ROPs
Radeon 7500 RV200 32 MB, DDR, 128 bit 260 MHz 180 MHz 2 / 1 / 6 / 2 Mac Edition
Radeon 9000 RV250 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 250 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4 PCI version. The AGP Pros are 275/275MHz.
Radeon 9200 RV280 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 250 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4
Radeon 9200SE RV280 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 200 MHz 166 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4
Radeon 9200LE RV280 64 MB, DDR, 128 bit 250 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4
Radeon 9250 RV280 128 MB, DDR, 128 bit 240 MHz 200 MHz 4 / 1 / 4 / 4

To be fair, 128MB of VRAM on a Mac OS 9 machine is waaaay too much and any of the cards will do for Mac OS 9 gaming.
Mac OS X is surely a very different beast and I know much too little about to be able to comment on it.

TI Radeon 9200 LE​

The Radeon 9200 LE was a graphics card by ATI, launched on May 1st, 2003. Built on the 150 nm process, and based on the RV280 graphics processor, the card supports DirectX 8.1. Since Radeon 9200 LE does not support DirectX 11 or DirectX 12, it might not be able to run all the latest games. The RV280 graphics processor is a relatively small chip with a die area of only 98 mm² and 36 million transistors. It features 4 pixel shaders and 1 vertex shader 4 texture mapping units, and 4 ROPs. Due to the lack of unified shaders you will not be able to run recent games at all (which require unified shader/DX10+ support). ATI has paired 64 MB DDR memory with the Radeon 9200 LE, which are connected using a 128-bit memory interface. The GPU is operating at a frequency of 250 MHz, memory is running at 200 MHz.
Being a single-slot card, the ATI Radeon 9200 LE draws power from 1x Molex power connector, with power draw rated at 28 W maximum. Display outputs include: 1x DVI, 1x VGA, 1x S-Video. Radeon 9200 LE is connected to the rest of the system using an AGP 8x interface.

ATI Radeon 9200​

The Radeon 9200 was a graphics card by ATI, launched on May 1st, 2003. Built on the 150 nm process, and based on the RV280 graphics processor, in its RV280 9200 variant, the card supports DirectX 8.1. Since Radeon 9200 does not support DirectX 11 or DirectX 12, it might not be able to run all the latest games. The RV280 graphics processor is a relatively small chip with a die area of only 98 mm² and 36 million transistors. It features 4 pixel shaders and 1 vertex shader 4 texture mapping units, and 4 ROPs. Due to the lack of unified shaders you will not be able to run recent games at all (which require unified shader/DX10+ support). ATI has paired 128 MB DDR memory with the Radeon 9200, which are connected using a 128-bit memory interface. The GPU is operating at a frequency of 250 MHz, memory is running at 200 MHz.
Being a single-slot card, the ATI Radeon 9200 does not require any additional power connector, its power draw is rated at 28 W maximum. Display outputs include: 1x DVI, 1x VGA, 1x S-Video. Radeon 9200 is connected to the rest of the system using an AGP 8x interface.
Thank you - looks like you're seeing what I'm seeing.
 

Powerbase

Well-known member
Thank you - looks like you're seeing what I'm seeing.
I wouldnt read too much into the model names from this or any period. They really dont signify anything. The 9100 was an 8500 and faster than the 9200. The 9200 was basically a 9000. The 9500s were faster than 9600s, and were just a cut down 9700.

These were just terms tacked onto to sell differently binned chips.
 

pizzigri

Well-known member
This is an Ati 9250 or at least it has been described as such. These cards are quite common and normally around 30-50 euro.
do you guys think this can be flashed for Mac 9600 use?
 

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Phipli

Well-known member
This is an Ati 9250 or at least it has been described as such. These cards are quite common and normally around 30-50 euro.
do you guys think this can be flashed for Mac 9600 use?
There is usually a resistor mod needed too... It's documented on an old website...

Note the card you have is a different layout to the one they have, so resistor labels, design, Mac compatibility... all might be different.

 

MacUp72

Well-known member
basically nine in the name means it is DirX 9 compatible, eg Radeon 9800..but with the 9000 and 9200 this is NOT the case, their chip and architecture is based on of the Radeon 8500 ( DirX 8), so this actually was misleading, pure marketing..I wonder if that would be possible today:rolleyes:
ahh, those early 2000 days, I loved my Radeon 9500, softmodded to a Radeon 9700 Pro.
 
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treellama

Well-known member
ahh, those early 2000 days, I loved my Radeon 9500, softmodded to a Radeon 9700 Pro.
Is there a soft mod for Mac OS X? I have a 9800 SE here that I recall worked when soft modded in Windows. Could put that in my G5 for no good reason :)
 

MacUp72

Well-known member
does your 9800 SE have 8 pipelines? it must be 256 bit then maybe yes..You can read out your card under windows with the ATI tool, Riva tuner, gpu-z or similar.. if yes you can install DNA drivers ( under Windows) and test it.
 

treellama

Well-known member
It does and used to work in Linux with soft modded drivers there. I was just not aware of any Mac OS X softmod.
 

chelseayr

Well-known member
I somewhat recall that the 9200 was one of these sort of card that was sold around a lot (and not just to retail at that) as not surprisingly it was basically 'as cheap as they could get it made out to' position in the radeon family tree at the time. And to confuse things further how about lowprofile with only vga+tv versus fullsize with dual monitor capacity through the additional inclusion of a dvi port?
 

cobalt60

Well-known member
Has anyone tried a Sun Microsystems PCI Radeon 7000 (or similar) in a Mac? My understanding is the reason PC cards don't work in Macs ootb is because they lack Open Firmware support. Sun Microsystems used OF so maybe they'll just work? I even heard of someone flashing a Radeon Mac Edition with Sun FW for additional features or performance. If no one has tried it, any thoughts? Particularly, would I risk frying anything if I tried this?
 

Phipli

Well-known member
Has anyone tried a Sun Microsystems PCI Radeon 7000 (or similar) in a Mac? My understanding is the reason PC cards don't work in Macs ootb is because they lack Open Firmware support. Sun Microsystems used OF so maybe they'll just work? I even heard of someone flashing a Radeon Mac Edition with Sun FW for additional features or performance. If no one has tried it, any thoughts? Particularly, would I risk frying anything if I tried this?
I heard that Sun cards might work, but I tried one and they don't. The benefit though is that they're basically identical to the Mac cards, including they have the larger capacity ROM, so you can reflash them with the full ROM without any soldering.
 

Pedro Passamani

New member
Has anyone tried a Sun Microsystems PCI Radeon 7000 (or similar) in a Mac? My understanding is the reason PC cards don't work in Macs ootb is because they lack Open Firmware support. Sun Microsystems used OF so maybe they'll just work? I even heard of someone flashing a Radeon Mac Edition with Sun FW for additional features or performance. If no one has tried it, any thoughts? Particularly, would I risk frying anything if I tried this?
I recently came across a Radeon 7000 that was pulled out of a Sun Fire V210 server. Knowing about Sun's creation and use of Open Firmware, I took it home to see if it would work in my 350 MHz B&W G3 running Tiger (which still had the stock Rage 128). This card was marketed and sold by Sun as the "Sun XVR-100 Graphics Accelerator".

To my surprise, it went better than expected. It actually gave me video (kinda)!

The boot screen showed up as usual, but in the OS itself the graphics were messy. I took a look at the Graphics/Displays information pane under System Profiler, and saw that the card was detected as "SUNW,375-3181", not "ATY,RV100", which is the Radeon 7000's identifier. The OS even got as far as detecting the connected display's resolution and color depth (the reported VRAM was wrong, though, as the card has 64 MB, not 128 MB).

As far as I can tell, the garbled graphics were because of missing drivers/kexts, not ROM incompatibility. I had the exact same issue happen when I tried running vanilla 10.4 on a 2005 iBook, which lacks drivers/kexts for the Mobility Radeon 9550.

Maybe if someone were to modify the ATI Radeon kext to include this card's identifier, it could work.

After playing around with it for a while, I used Graphicclerator to flash the official Radeon 7000 Mac Edition ROM. No modifications were needed, like Phipli said. With its 64 MB of VRAM, this card is now a better Radeon 7000 Mac Edition than the official version ever was.

The takeaway here is two fold. GPUs pulled out of Sun SPARC systems are great choices for PowerPC Macs (as far as the Radeon 7000 goes; don't know about other GPUs they used), and maybe they could work out of the box if we just had compatible drivers/kexts for them.
 

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zefrenchtoon

Well-known member
@cobalt60 here you will find 2 (french) posts about tests done by @Dandu

@Phipli
Maybe if you check on gpuzoo you will find some answers:

the 9200 is clocked at 250MHz and the 9250 is clocked at 240MHz
then there are differences between memory interface width ...
 

Phipli

Well-known member
the 9200 is clocked at 250MHz and the 9250 is clocked at 240MHz
then there are differences between memory interface width ...
Yes, but what I was raising is that the differences that "everyone knows" aren't consistent and there are, for example, three types of 9200 by name (9200, 9200 SE and 9200 LE), but they then the amount of VRAM and bus width change even on models that have the same exact name.

I suspect the answer is that the naming conventions were inconsistent.

You've answered a different question to the one I asked.
 

zefrenchtoon

Well-known member
I think that ATI did "reference boards" with different specifications then third party makers did ... what they want to accomodate to the market by making low cost versions using 64 bits chips and so on (i.e. HIS ... I did not know before buying a HIS 9250 using 64 bits memory => unusable on Mac) .
 

Phipli

Well-known member
i.e. HIS ... I did not know before buying a HIS 9250 using 64 bits memory => unusable on Mac) .
I've used a 64 bit HIS 9250 card on a Mac? But then I later added the missing chips and turned it into a 128bit card. But it worked before that anyway I'm sure. The 64 bit isn't different chips, they just only fit half as many.
 

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